--> Interview with Firuz Kutal

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"People on both sides play the same ugly game.

The consequence of that is more confusion"

(Ben Heine © Cartoons)

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Firuz Kutal is a Turkish cartoonist, now resident in Oslo, Norway. He is a professional illustrator and graphic designer. He participated in the controversial Holocaust cartoon contest organized by the Iranian House of Cartoon. He currently collaborates with the newspapers and magazines "Ny Tid", "Klassekampen", "Dagbladet", "Syn&Segn", "Spesialpedagogik", "Forfatteren" (Norway), "Birgun", ''Seruven'', ''Lacivert'', ''Ozne''(Turkey), ''Independent Media Center'', "Comedy Corner" (Greece). See his work on http://www.kutal.org/ill.htm Contact: kutal@kutal.com

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1) How did you become a professional cartoonist?

It began with a cartoon magazine in Turkey, Girgir, where young amateurs had a chance to be published. Girgir was one of the most important humor magazines in Turkey around the 1990’s. It was also an important publication worldwide since it was the third best selling humor magazine after the American MAD and the Russian Crocodile. Girgir is almost a myth in Turkey. I was lucky enough to be published a few times in that magazine.

I have always believed that there was society and there was my brain. Creating humorous cartoons was an effective way to express myself. Even if I went to university to graduate as a mathematician and Industrial Engineer, I always felt comfortable with the artistic expression. I wanted to have the chance to change my life after I graduated with two university diplomas. I managed to be chosen in Apply Art School in Oslo where I actually came to continue my master degree in Computer Science. After that I became a professional illustrator and graphic designer and I never stopped drawing political cartoons.

2) For which papers, magazines or websites do you work for?

I usually work as a freelancer. I feel freer by doing so. My drawings are published in different countries. The only magazine that regularly uses my works is Amnesty International monthly magazine in Norway. Before I immigrated to Norway, I was working in a Turkish newspaper that published my comic strips. There are several web sites that use my works. Most of them can be seen at www.kutal.com/cartoon.html. Freedom of Expression against censorship magazines, London Review of News in London have also used my artworks. Many Norwegian newspapers use them too when it suits them.

3) What elements usually strike you and inspire you in the political news?

There is no single case or news that strikes or inspires me. I come from a country which had an important position in many historical events. This country connects the East and the West. So I know both cultures. After I immigrated to Norway it became clear to me that there were a lot of double standards in political areas. For example, I was shocked to see how people have racial stereotypes when they interpret things. I also realized that racism had roots in Europe. It actually originated from there, not from where I come from. Even if there was a lot of conflicts and differences in Turkey I could live in the same street with Armenians, Orthodox Greeks, Jews, Muslims and nationalist. In Istanbul we had on one corner Mosques and on the other corner we found Synagogues and Churches.

It was the same situation in my classes: My friends were Kurdish, Turkish, Armenian, Assyrian, American (some even came from Africa and Asia). It is not the same situation where I live now. But anyway I always support the oppressed groups and suppressed ideologies. 30 years of my life I was also a partisan of human rights. Especially after September the 11th 2001. It seems that many nations have decided to create more borders rather than being more “global”. This generated many ugly human rights’ violations. The Guantanamo prison, that shocked many of us, is a terrible example. It is a shame for our civilization. I feel that we do not need this kind of “big brother” places to be safer. On the other hand I know that the dream of millions of people who stand on the street and ask for another world is still achievable. These movements and people give me hope and inspire my works.

4) Do you think there should be limits to the cartoonist’s freedom of expression? If so, what are the « redlines »?

Freedom of expression is related with Freedom in general. The words don't kill people, weapons do. The people we don't like should find room to express themselves too. We cannot kill everybody because they have other ways of saying things. This is something many people believe after the historical achievement that was called the French Revolution. But this revolution also showed that some people were freer than the others. This was a principle that can also be violated by authorities who have power to suppress and to eliminate everything on their way. A person who draws cartoons can go-further than what our moral accepts, but freedom of speech is enshrined in the United Nations Universal Declaration of Human Rights and is recognized by most of the world nations. But authoritarian approaches in the nations and governments usually enforce censorship.

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Artists usually have their own censorship. The experiments that Pavlov did with mice are usually in effect with humans too. Even if we do not have reason to be afraid anymore, we continue to produce borders ourselves. Freedom of expression is not a hate speech. It comes as a critic or as other points of view.

Personally I don’t believe in any limits to the cartoonists' freedom of expressions. Limits are usually rules implemented to protect something. Limits help other benefits than our own. Limits should not come from above. If we have to have limits we should have open and tolerated discussions about it to find a consensus. We have to give more credit to the people, instead of operating in their name. Instead of limits, we, as cartoonist seek tolerance in the peoples’ minds…and in our own mind too. Because I believe (even though I didn’t succeed yet) that cartoonists can make differences by using their imagination, their sense of humor and their love of critical humor. Just in the sake of Freedom. We can learn something positive about it.

By the way the most successful book who was telling about humor and which I like the most was Roses name by Umberto Eco. For me it was a nice book that made us think about humor and status quo.

5) Is there only one freedom or expression or are there several ones? (Regarding the cultural differences from one country to another)

There is only one. Freedom to communicate, freedom to express, freedom to show something that people usually don’t focus on, is all one Freedom. It has nothing to do with cultural differences. In all cultures you can find somehow a cartoonist who makes use of his free expression and there are always people who won’t like it.

Some people say their culture is “more privileged” and they need to recall others about the “cultural differences”…

As I can say many Scandinavians are very much cultivated, civilized. You can see all the wealth system of these countries in the behavior of their citizens. People like myself who immigrated to one of these countries can change their behavior and become very polite too. I will take a simple example : taking the bus. You learn easily to not push the others and you can easily learn to wait in the queue with the native Scandinavians. But why is it so? I believe that this is a “generalization”. First of all there are not many people in the Scandinavian countries in comparison to other countries. And the buses come exactly at the minute written on the time schedules. In this case, I think it is easy to be “cultivated, civilized and supportive of this system”. But after many years living here I happened to witness how my native Scandinavian friends changed their behaviors quickly when the situation around them changed. If you travel to one of the Greek islands, Ioas, Naxos, Santorini, etc. you will notice how all tourists from Western Europe become even more Turkish and Greek than the Turkish and Greeks themselves. Why? Because busses never come at the time they say they would come. Even if a bus finally comes, it often happens that two hours delay is nothing for the bus-driver and he can close the doors and can take a twenty minutes pause. So in this kind of situations where there is no guaranty that the next bus will be there again, all civilized people learn very easily to push others, to cheat to come in the bus. This is human.

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Again, the words ''Cultural differences'' in my view is just an excuse.

6) What do you think about the holocaust cartoon contest organized by the Iranian newspaper Hamshari, in response to the caricatures of Muhammad published in several Europeans papers?

I participated to this contest with a very open mind. And I did many cartoons that criticized Danish Muhammad Cartoon initiative. I was convinced that there was everything except ''freedom of expression'' in the Danish Cartoons. These cartoons’ purpose (I prefer to just call them “sketches”) was to provoke war, distraction and wanted the viewer to take part of it. Religion and beliefs are also a human right. You are a believer or not. We should learn to respect others’ decisions. To respect others’ decisions is mainly to respect yourself (unless you meet some kind of open attack directly at your principals). But these Danish cartoons only provoked Muslim people and served only to justify the theory ''us against the others'' and divide the world.

In the beginning Iranian Cartoon Contest was understandable. We, who supported the contest, intended to test the Western interpretation of the concept ''freedom of expression''. At the same time Israel launched an attack against Palestinians civilians. This was an outrageous initiative and it seems that they did it with the support of the USA. Many Palestinian civilians died. Now again, there are ceasefires and peace conversations. How long will it last? Certainly until the next Israeli force demonstration to show who has more power in the region...

Iranian officials used this cartoon contest to justify the Iranian government’s allegation: ''genocide on Jews never existed'' and the result of it was that even KKK-Ku Klux Klan has sent representatives to Iran to celebrate this ideology. KKK’s participation on this concept was purely enough for me to cancel my participation to this contest. I never talked in any case about ''Jews elimination''. The Holocaust was a historical fact. Today what Israel does can be defined in many ways, but denying historical facts was and is not a solution. Even if the chairman of the Iranian contest agrees with that, this contest is being used as a weapon because it carries a dangerous ideology.

As in the Danish Cartoon scandal, this has nothing to do with freedom of expression. According to me, people on both sides play the same ugly game. The consequence of that is more confusion of the public.

7) Have some of your drawings been censored? In which circumstances?

Yes some of my drawings have been censored. The first one in Turkey when a military coup d'Etat happened in Turkey. It was in 1980. I was working in a newspaper called Cumhuriyet and I did a draw about the local politicians of those days. We could see them moving very cautiously, walking on their toes and controlling all the others while their main focus was the chair that represents the power.

The second drawing that was censored was in Norway. Even if Norway is one of the most open systems worldwide, there are also some censored subjects. I did a cover of a book about cultural differences. The book was published in 1994 and still sells very well. The authors were two young writers and I loved their way of describing their own society. I was commissioned for 6 drawings but as I loved the articles I actually made more than asked. I did illustrations for the 17 chapters. On the cover, I drew two families, one from a Muslim country and another from the West. I showed their genital organs: the men from the West had smaller penis than Arabic men. The cover came out for the first edition with red strips on the organs but was never used again for the next editions.

8) Do you have any self-censorship? What are the most difficult subjects to represent?

I think every cartoonist has self-censorship in a way or in another. If you choose to operate your life in the system you live in, then you create justifications for your existence. I believe everybody has self-censorship. Not necessarily on political subjects, but may be on religion, on genders, on relatives, on sex. Yes, honestly I also have self-censorship. On religious subjects: I did for instance a cartoon with a crucified Muslim. On sexual subjects: I stopped drawing about children. I always found myself in trouble when I drew on child-porno and rape-issues.

9) Do you think the cartoon is a political force that can make people change their behavior?

I don’t think that. Art is mostly about feelings. May be the purpose of art is to encourage you to think, but only the reader of your cartoon will choose what he thinks is worth according to the point of view you have. Cartoon is just a channel, not the river itself. Cartoons can change people’s opinion, not their behaviors. These are two different things, I guess.

10) Do you think that the cartoonist is an artist or rather a journalist, or may be both?

I don’t have any thought about this. As a cartoon producer I feel sometimes like an artist. Because I have to draw and tell and show something I have in my head. I live like that. Without making gags, sarcasms, marks and humor, I am nothing. But sometimes I feel also as a political animal, I want to learn, ask, react, protest, support, share, disagree, and mostly be part of what is changing in society. Sometimes I feel that the cartoonist is journalist, I’m always interested to follow the news not when a dog barks at a man, but rather when a man barks at a dog. I have noticed that some cartoonists are also psychologists, anthropologists, sociologists, or sometimes just funny persons.

11) According to you, does he have to make people laugh or to make them think?

I always wished people spent more time reading my works. I did daily comic strips and cartoons. It is OK; sometimes a cartoonist should not take his work too seriously even if it is deals with important matters. Most cartoons appear on daily papers which go to the garbage. This is actually not bad at all. Even if 8 people read what a cartoon tells us, it is already a success. In the way we live in the 21st century we are used to live with thousands images everyday and even if our brain “prints” them unconsciously, we even don't see them consciously. “Seeing” means “believing”. Now I believe that what I collect as an importance.

Cartoons that make me think and laugh in the same time have always been my favourite ones. But when time went by I realized that making humor, making people laugh was a very difficult task. You don’t find many Charlie Chaplin. I guess I love cleverness inside a cartoon but I don’t want to say that graphical cartoons are nicer than funny cartoons. Every cartoon has its place sometime.

Personally it happens that a cartoon doesn’t make me smile, even if it seems very funny. Many cartoons degrade values about women. I found them ideological and they make me think not about the cartoon, but about the cartoonist who stands behind the drawing. These cartoons do not make me shake. I just stand there a little stupid. I become a train stop, a boat that doesn’t sail. May be it is just a question of taste. Cartoons as I put it need many layers, platforms and subtlety to touch the reader.

For example, I may like a cartoon showing Bush with two or more mouths on his face and I could dislike a drawing showing him like a funny chimpanzee. Even if the last one is funny it doesn’t make the reader take the Bush administration seriously.


12) What is for you the most difficult situation or person to draw?

Everybody can be drawn. Even if they can be difficult, you can then focus on what they are famous with and make them recognizable, I guess. I usually have problems with the women faces. But we don’t have them much in politics.
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--> Interview : Benjamin Heine
--> This interview also appeared on www.tlaxcala.es